First, some facts:
Some of your Nokia phones have an embedded GPS chipset, most or all are built by Texas Instruments. It
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First, some facts:
Some of your Nokia phones have an embedded GPS chipset, most or all are built by Texas Instruments. It
To be honest I can't think of anything to add as you have put it so succinctly.
Maybe I'll just futher explain A-GPS and Network Based Positioning
Nokia state the following (see http://www.nokia.co.uk/get-support-and-software/product-support/nokia-n9...):
What is A-GPS?
Assisted GPS (A-GPS) is an enhanced version of GPS. A-GPS retrieves assistance data over a data connection (like GPRS or 3G), which helps your device calculate the coordinates of your current location when receiving signals from satellites.
What are the benifits of A-GPS?
A-GPS is designed to get a fix on satellites faster and more reliably, meaning you get a smoother GPS experience. It reduces the time a GPS enabled device requires to find its current position, known as Time To First Fix (TTFF), for most geographical locations worldwide.
A-GPS is most useful in urban areas, where you could be navigating through "urban canyons", or in a moving car.
A-GPS improves user experience for all applications on your device which use integrated GPS.
Are there any extra costs for using A-GPS?
You pay your service provider for data transferred over the cellular network. Please keep in mind that the charges might be higher while roaming.
Network Based Positioning
When Nokia Betalabs first referred to Maps 2 (which first used Network Based Positioning) they stated the following:
"It will position you really fast, usually within 5 to 10 seconds. It works indoors, on a bus or train. Network based positioning cannot be used for navigation since it is not accurate enough. However it works just fine for showing where you are (roughly) on the map. A pink circle in the map shows the accuracy of the position. When GPS fix is achieved, this is used instead of the Network based position, and the pink ring disappears. Network based positioning is now enabled on all A-GPS enabled devices."
mbrett
N95 8Gb (Product Code: 0558787 (UK)) FW 31.0.018
Quote from (http://www.thenokiaguide.com/my_weblog/2008/03/nokia-bluetooth.html)
Nokia
I'd rather have an armband than a necklace. If you have a bad signal and bad weather, your body will block it if you carry the receiver around your neck. it will work much better on your arm, even better on top of your shoulder.
I once wore my LD-3W under my hat on top of my head, as that's the only way top get a decent reading.
It is not necessary to wear a GPS module on your head.
The readings are nearly indistinguishable from pocket to under your hat. It is recommended for the module to have a clear view of the sky for best performance, but I can tell you with hundreds of uses that it makes no detectable difference. Yes, I have worn it under my hat. Also, armband, waterbelt, in my gloves, fixed to handlebars, dashboard of car and under a tight running shirt sleeve... no difference.
-David
Current setup: e61 unbranded product code 0529654 Euro-B1 Silver. Firmware: 3.0633.09.04. Theme: Ovi blue. Service provider: 3 Sweden. Peripherals: Bluemax ext BT GPS module
I thought I just said that I have carried it on my head as that was the only way to get clear reading. Thus, I can tell you it does make a difference that is not only 'detectable' in certain conditions. That difference is as big as work or fail.
I agree, the external GPS makes for a much better experience, as, for example, the N95 works best when when the slider is open. This already is a disadvantage when using it in a pocket or armband. The beltclip for the external GPS works fine in most cases.
I use the Aquapac waterproof arm holder which is large enough to have the phone open and has a transparent face which allows a clear view of the display...
Alun
N95-1 (Product Code: 0548170 (Orange UK)) FW 30.0.015
Wear it on your head and wear it with pride. I don't recommend it.
Feel free to look through the hundreds of workouts I have on SportsTracker and tell me which were the ones when I wore it under my winter running cap. Or simply have a look and tell me which ones "worked" and which ones "failed". I tested this SportsTracker utility with many different GPS module placements, recorded my results, including notes for weather, terrain and manmade obstructions.
If your GPS module fails when/if you put it in your pocket vs. on your head, consider that you may have a defective model.
Otherwise, substantiate your claims of work and fail with examples on your SportsTracker profile.
My SportsTracker ID is djh.sthlm
-David
Current setup: e61 unbranded product code 0529654 Euro-B1 Silver. Firmware: 3.0633.09.04. Theme: Ovi blue. Service provider: 3 Sweden. Peripherals: Bluemax ext BT GPS module
You cannot win against those ppl. There is always someone in every forum with compulsion to answer every post... They thing that gives them control = power. Let him have it, he clearly needs it.
What's worse, this one's Swedish. They've neurotic about always having the last word ESPECIALLY when they know they're wrong.-
What is wrong with debating the issue rationally? Fighting, name-calling and using foul language is not in the spirit of a healthy forum.
A good and healthy forum should be a welcome environment where ideas are shared, challenged and promoted. Most of all, an effective forum should yield reliable information. It is my opinion that your statement of, "I have carried it on my head as that was the only way to get clear reading...That difference is as big as work or fail.", should be challenged.
I love the SportsTracker application and web service, using them every day for my training. This product still has some kinks being worked out and part of that development comes from the suggestions and feedback in this forum. Nokia Beta Labs is a wonderful concept.
My frequent contributions here are solely meant to assist others to discover the best SportsTracker user experience possible. And I will continue to do so.
Be nice.
-David
Current setup: e61 unbranded product code 0529654 Euro-B1 Silver. Firmware: 3.0633.09.04. Theme: Ovi blue. Service provider: 3 Sweden. Peripherals: Bluemax ext BT GPS module
When I walk into my house I get no fix, or a bad one when the LD3W is in my pocket, however if I take it out of my pocket and face the nokia logo upward (which is recommended in the instruction manual that comes with the device), then I am able to a good fix with occasional bad spikes that throw me into the back yard.
Pretty clear to me that following the books instructions makes a difference! However when I am outside I always get a clear signal, pocket or not. I am never in hills, or around buildings when I am outside.
BTW my house is steel framed house with an iron roof, not good for any reception!
Even though I am a SportsTracker superfan and overall GPS junkie, I also become frustrated with the limitations of the underlying technology.
I've used Garmin, Polar, Suunto and five different S60 apps for geospatial recordings. I've tried three different Bluetooth GPS modules each containing a different GPS chipset technology. The one thing I was after throughout all my trials was accuracy and consistency of data and in the end all my choices, regardless of their costs, performed similarly well.
So what's my frustration? Well, no matter what my configuration and controlled environment, I haven't been able to smooth out the analyzed data. The best GPS chipset, the best placement of antenna, the clearest weather conditions, traveling on the flattest terrain still shows the same erratic data.
Naturally, you always want the best opportunities possible of receiving the faint signals from the (up to) 30 NAVSTAR satellites: Outdoors, no obstructions, clear weather, flat and sea-level terrain, equatorial regions, robust GPS chipset and good antenna, no recent Solar flares, etc)
However, as it concerns the SportsTracker's graphic analyzation output of Speed vs Time/Distance and Elevation data, I cannot seem to improve the accuracy of such data no matter what I do to improve my satellite reception configuration.
Is there anybody who can show their SportsTracker workouts with quantifiably less erratic data in the "Speed vs. Distance" graphic than what everyone else is experiencing? If so, link us to your workout and share your configuration ideas.
Thanks!
-David
Current setup: e61 unbranded product code 0529654 Euro-B1 Silver. Firmware: 3.0633.09.04. Theme: Ovi blue. Service provider: 3 Sweden. Peripherals: Bluemax ext BT GPS module
I have not made formal tests, but this is my experience: To *get* the fix with gps it is essential that you have a clear view of the sky. If a house behind your back (or your body if you bow over the gps) hides half of the sky it makes getting the fix much slower. It may easily take 5 min which is a terribly long time to wait.
Even more essential is that you don't move when waiting for a fix. If I am walking then 10 mins is quite normal time to wait. A few weeks ago I started SportsTracker at the same time I started skiing and it took some 20 mins and 3 kms before the gps fix.
However, *after* getting the fix the gps works ok even if I keep it in my pocket (as I usually do). The gps doesn't loose the signal and the route seems reasonably accurate on the map
djh.sthlm said: However, as it concerns the SportsTracker's graphic analyzation output of Speed vs Time/Distance and Elevation data, I cannot seem to improve the accuracy of such data no matter what I do to improve my satellite reception configuration.
My experience is the same: Although the saved route is quite ok on the map, the speed and elevation as shown by SportsTracker are erratic. They should be run through a clever smooting filter before being shown on a diagram.
Markus
PS Nokia E66 with internal gps and SportsTracker (and Maps 3)
I only have one GPS unit and that is the LD3W, which I think has the same chip as the LD4W (could be wrong).
I used a little app to test the signal and found the orientation of the device affected my signal, then if I put my hand on the device I could destroy the signal.
Here are the details of my test:
- I used a program call GPSUtility on Mac OSX which displays all the satellites the unit can see, and the satellites individual signal strengths.
- I started with the unit on its back with clear view, and had 10 clear satellites
- I rotated the unit on it's side, the signal of most satellites dropped and I lost 2 satellites, about 2 x satellites did not drop in signal
- After turning it on it's back again to reset the signal levels I then rotated the unit upside-down, the signal levels dropped for all satellites but I didn't loose view of any.
- Then I experimented with my hand. With my hand firmly on top I lost all but 2 of the satellites, and lost the position fix.
All of this was from inside my house. My house is a bit of a Faradays cage which may explain why I could completely destroy the signal with my hand.
I would like to do this experiment on inbuilt GPS's to see which orientation they are set up to work on! But alas I don't have one.
Hope this can help!
I just moderated two comments that were flagged as offensive (and to violate our http://betalabs.nokia.com/terms).
Let's try to keep the dialogue constructive - and avoid personal attacks...
Thanks @CLTSchwarz and @Fonero for sharing your observations!
I also use GPSUtility on my Mac and a S60 app called AFTrack, which has similar graphics for individual satellite monitoring. Anybody interested in digging into the data of GPS signals will find these apps valuable to have in their arsenals.
LD3W, LD4W, my Bluemax 710... All of them use SIRF III chip. The LD4W is a newer SIRF III LT, but observes only a difference in power consumption. The SIRF III chip runs 20 parallel channels, each one locked to one of 30 different NAVSTAR satellites in orbit. Refresh rate is every one (1) second.
You ONLY need -edit- four (4) -edit- locked satellite signals to pinpoint your location accurately. Why 20 channels then? In the best conditions (outdoors, clear sky, unblocked GPS, etc) your GPS will lock to 19 to 20 satellites. Hilly terrain, wooded canopy, heavy cloud cover, bridges, buildings, latitude, etc, has an affect on how many locks you will be able to maintain. Still, you only require four (4) locks to maintain accuracy of SportsTracker. A consistent lock on at least three versus 20 satellites will not change the accuracy of the SportsTracker application.
With that in mind, we should make a distinction between an GPS chip's optimal performance environment versus what is required for consistent SportsTracker tracking.
Yes, blocking the signal has an affect on how many satellites you can be locked to. No, it doesn't make a difference whether you're locked to 20 or 10 satellites for the purposes of SportsTracker.
When I carry my GPS module in my pocket, I typically remain locked to 8 to 15 satellites. Carried under my hat, 13 to 19 satellites. Fixed to my handlebars, 17 to 20 satellites. Regardless, the SportsTracker app observes the same, 8 satellites to 20.
-David
Current setup: e61 unbranded product code 0529654 Euro-B1 Silver. Firmware: 3.0633.09.04. Theme: Ovi blue. Service provider: 3 Sweden. Peripherals: Bluemax ext BT GPS module
djh.sthlm: You ONLY need three (3) locked satellite signals to pinpoint your location accurately.
Actually you need 4 satellites to calculate 4 variables: longitude, latitude, altitude and time.
When sailing you can expect your altitude to be constant, but ST is not built for that application.
Moreover if the four satellites are roughly in the same direction the calculated position is quite inaccurate. But if you see something like six satellites in various directions then that should be enough for a good fix.
Markus
Thanks for clearing that up. I was just going for triangulation. I'll check my facts and come back.
We haven't even touched on erroneous waypoint recordings from signal reflections. For me, this is a far worse problem than signal loss. Happens to me every time on a few routes with bridges I have to go under, sometimes adding 2km to my track. Simply pausing the app through the problem area is one workaround. But a filter which ignores super-human 130km/hr running speeds seems feasible.
So, I absolutely agree with you (asking for it myself) that a better filter for spikes in data is needed for the website analyzations.
-David
Current setup: e61 unbranded product code 0529654 Euro-B1 Silver. Firmware: 3.0633.09.04. Theme: Ovi blue. Service provider: 3 Sweden. Peripherals: Bluemax ext BT GPS module
Quote from Wikipedia:
It might seem three satellites are enough to solve for position, since space has three dimensions. However a very small clock error multiplied by the very large speed of light
@Alun,
what version of the Aquapac do you use? I alsow own a N95 8GB and I'm still looking for a phone bag.
Thanks!
I use the small arm holder (http://www.aquapac.net/ukstore/erol.html#594X1129).
My arms are quite spindley so I use all of the velcro adjustment but I'm confident that you'll have no trouble with it.
So far I've had no issues apart from the odd friction mark but you'll get those with any arm holder.
Its big enough to have the phone open for full GPS reception, totally waterproof and transparent so you can see the display.
Alun
N95-1 (Product Code: 0548170 (Orange UK)) FW 30.0.015
Thanks for your response!
My habit: I can't wait so I ordered yesterday the large one. I thought the small one could be too tight. Let's see.
I use the Aquapac Keymaster (Code 604) as I found that the Aquapack clear sections stick to the glossy front of the N95 8Gb. I then place this in a pocket.
mbrett
N95 8Gb (Product Code: 0558787 (UK)) FW 31.0.018
djh.sthlm I read on your info that you are soon to be a dad? Last night I was thinking that I wish the GPS would work better inside so I could track the amount of KM's I have walked inside trying to put my baby to sleep!
Congratulations, and just joking about the KM's walking inside thing. Being a dad is great
I now have an excuse to purchase an external LD-4W Nokia Bluetooth GPS Receiver. Just waiting for it to arrive tomorrow. Just have to wait for my achilles to heal now.
mbrett
N95 8Gb (Product Code: 0558787 (UK)) FW 31.0.018
mbrett, keep that inflammation warm. hot, hot, hot baths so you are hot to the bone. Even a slight draft will set yo u back.
Power management and better GPS chipset positives aside, Nokia's LD-4W is one of the best packaged SIRF III lt out there; Sleek and stylish.
I've had GlobeSat and QStarz modules in the past and now a Bluemax which is the least expensive (<
Yes, 18 days to due date and it can't come soon enough, so thanks for your thoughts!
Nokia have three test cities with facilities (malls as far as I can tell) using an indoor tracking infrastructure. I don't have any details but I know the setup involves more than A-GPS. Sport-wise, I'd love to see Stockholm's sports hall trying it out.
Indoor tracking predates GPS, however. In 1991 a local grocery store used an indoor tracking system to help you find items within the store. Grocery carts were outfitted with early LCD displays and showing your position on a basic store map. The brilliant aspect of its use was in product advertising, so your screen would flash adverts for products relevant to your location in the store: Passing by coffee and your screen showed specials on coffee.
The experiment lasted a year, vanishing here without a trace. I say, "here", because the tech was also tested in a couple cities in the US from 1992 to 1993 with rave reviews from shoppers. Then, nothing.
-David
Current setup: e61 unbranded product code 0529654 Euro-B1 Silver. Firmware: 3.0633.09.04. Theme: Ovi blue. Service provider: 3 Sweden. Peripherals: Bluemax ext BT GPS module
@IMAGINARY.FRIEND Problem is I'm still going to work so have to take it with me, so unable to keep it warm. Hopefullly I won't end up messing it up any more. Want to get backl to running ASAP. Accept probably need a couple of weeks off to mend.
@ djh.sthlm Should receive the LD-4W tomorrow morning. Looking forward to my new toy. Hope you're getting as much sleep as possible as in 18 days it may become a premiium.
mbrett
N95 8Gb (Product Code: 0558787 (UK)) FW 31.0.018
OT- Sorry. Yet another case for PM'ing.
@mbrett, Happy birthday? In Sweden we say, "Grattis p
How long?????
My wife gets 6 months statutory maternity leave on basic government handout before she goes back to work so we can afford to live.
I got 2 weeks paternity on full pay as I work for a good company as this can be on no pay.
Likin' the look of some of the loggers on the website you referenced. Sopent up now though. LD-4W, DC-8 and twin N95 8Gb battery charger.
mbrett
N95 8Gb (Product Code: 0558787 (UK)) FW 31.0.018
Hi djh.sthlm,
You
Hi, piotr_1
I use LD-4W with my E71. measuring vs milestones on the road, I found that it is 0.1% to 0.2% accurate.
In the nst site the rout is very accurately drowned.
It will also log altitude as down to -400 meters (the dead sea) and up in flight.
The E71 failed to do that.
Giora
E71 + LD-4W user
Lat: 31.80244N Lon: 35.15630
Hi gtamir,
Tremendous! That's perfect precision! BTW, did you test this two (LD-4W & E71) perheps on tough weather conditions - cloudy sky and ex. in wooded area? Was the reception uninterupted?
piotr
The weather here is never so tough. But in the wood or cloudy sky I never had a problem.
Giora
E71 + LD-4W user
Lat: 31.80244N Lon: 35.15630
My E71 is more and more loosing performance on GPS-receiption. I need more time to get a fix (i have disabled assisted and network), it is more inaccurate, and sometimes in the middle of walking it looses connections to satellites. This is getting more and more worse, without any known reason.
So i bought the LD-4W, and i clearly can confirm:
- The LD-4W usually gets a first position within 1 or 2 minutes (out of the moving car).
- The positions are much more precise.
In situations of not moving the position-points are almost all on one point.... where the E71 without external device was jumping around in an area of 10 meters.